Jeremiah: 0:06

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to How to Language, a show about remembering, um, I forget.

Marina: 0:15

Today on How to Language, we'll be addressing a question that we've heard a couple times from fans, which is, I learned X language in high school or college, but I haven't used it in a long time, and I don't really remember it. Is it possible for me to pick it up again, or do I have to start all over? Fortunately, you probably don't have to start from square one. But it will require some extra effort on your part, kind of like cold starting an old lawnmower. We'll look at some of the theory behind memory and forgetting as it applies to language retention. Then we'll offer some practical advice on how to prevent forgetting before it starts, and recover forgotten knowledge if you're picking up an old language again after a significant period away.

Jeremiah: 1:04

alright, so as we often do on this show, maybe let's take a little while to just talk about our own experiences with this, which I feel like anyone who has You know, in the past, studied a language or learned a language, even if you knew it really well, but then spent some time away from it, as we often do, you know, life happens. Um, I think we'll all have the shared experience of having forgot, unfortunately forgotten, some or maybe even all of what we once knew about our target language. So, you know, that's an experience I've had. I know that's an experience that you've had, Marina. So, I'll throw it over to you first, and then I'll jump in. Um, what has been your experience with, You know, forgetting, or, yeah, just, you know, forgetting parts or even all of a language that you've studied in the past. Because I know you've studied Japanese, I know you've studied Latin, just like me, and I know that you haven't Really touched either of those in a little bit. Um, I did get you some Japanese books for, uh, for Christmas a couple years ago that you didn't really look at, but, you know, I don't, I don't hold that against you, I've, I've learned since then that books are not necessarily the best Christmas presents, but, um, you know, hopefully you'll take another stab at, maybe after listening to our episode, you'll take another stab at those.

Marina: 2:15

Honestly, yeah, cause every time I think about Japanese, I get really sad, because I really enjoyed learning Japanese. I think. Oh my god, I started in college and I, I took Japanese classes for like, I think three years. I did a study abroad program one summer when I was in college where I took an intensive Japanese course. But then after I did that, I never took another Japanese class again because I got caught up in You know, trying to graduate, and, and then the pandemic happened, and I just never did anything formal with Japanese again. And I think that's an experience that a lot of people have, because they learned a language by taking a class. Maybe that was in high school, maybe that was in college, maybe that was, you know In another third party environment or whatever. And you stop taking classes and then you're no longer in an environment where you need to be using the language. And then you just like, don't ever again. Which is sad, because, I mean, at least for me, I feel kind of guilty about it on a certain level. Just, you know, I feel like I let myself down by Now, I don't think this is true, but, like, I do feel this way where I feel like it was all a waste if I don't start learning Japanese again and start using it again, um, because I really valued those experiences and so there's a lot of, like, emotion tied up in it in addition to just, like, when I do think about Japanese or try to speak Japanese, I, I feel really bummed out by how much I don't remember. Especially when it's really basic stuff, like we're forgetting basic verbs, forgetting basic nouns, um, it can be very demoralizing and that makes me not want to do it. And so, yeah, that's been my experience with it. Um, Latin, I don't, I don't remember anything and I don't really feel bad about it. Sorry.

Jeremiah: 4:27

That's fair. Um, yeah, you know, you mentioned that For you, and I think also for a lot of other people, once you stop taking the class, like the class in school, if you took a language in school, um, that's really your reason for coming back to it, because you have to. So there's a lot of built in accountability, which we've talked about previously, I think, and this is kind of the flip side of that, which is that if you've been relying on that accountability of a class and, you know, a group of other learners who Um, are sharing that experience with you and then all of a sudden, you're not taking those classes anymore. You're focusing on something else or you've graduated or whatever happens. Um, you are now really the only one who's responsible for you continuing to do that learning. And You know, combining that with the fact that, you know, if you're not taking those classes anymore, it might be because of a significant life change, like you've graduated, you're working, whatever. Um, so it can be a really big upset to your routine, and so it can be really easy to fall off the wagon at that point, I think. Um, so that's really understandable. I think that happened to me too with Spanish, and um, I never really took Latin classes, but you know, um,

Marina: 5:39

oh yeah, like it doesn't. It's not always like a classroom context, either, that triggers a break. I think that's just really common. But, with yourself studying a language, the sort of quote unquote break that you're taking might be a little bit more fuzzy, like the boundary is a little more fuzzy. Um, because you don't have a built in accountability system necessarily. You just kind of stop for whatever reason, or slow down for whatever reason. Um, but it can still happen even if you weren't ever taking a class.

Jeremiah: 6:13

Yeah, and it's definitely sad, no matter what, because I get what you mean about it feeling like a waste. Um, it feels like you invested a ton of time and effort into something, and, you know, people say use it or lose it, and there's definitely some truth to that, which is that, you know, you've put all this work into it, and if you're not using it, it's like it just kind of goes, it seems like it just goes down the drain. Um, and it's a bummer, and you mentioned that. It makes you sad, and so it makes you not want to pick it up again, because you'll just be reminded of that feeling. So, it kind of raises a bit of an affective barrier to getting back into it, because there's like, um, some Catholic guilt about forgetting your target language. So yeah, I can definitely relate to that. Do you have any other experiences to share about that? Um,

Marina: 7:06

at least for now. I think I'll talk about some more stuff later, but that's kind of it for the intro.

Jeremiah: 7:11

Yeah, and I definitely had similar, similar experiences, I think, with particularly Spanish, because that's the one that I just kind of found myself sticking with throughout college. Not even by any sort of plan or idea of what I wanted to do with that. I was just like, Oh, yeah, I guess I'll take Spanish again. Every quarter I was like, Oh, I need a class to take. Oh, that's okay. She can be in the podcast. Our dog just did a little shake anyway. Um, you know, every quarter I was like, Oh, I guess I'll take Spanish again, um, sort of muddling along, but I enjoyed it and I got a lot out of it.

Marina: 7:49

You accidentally became fluent in Spanish.

Jeremiah: 7:52

Yeah, I guess literally just cause I had nothing better to do. Um, but I'm glad I did. And I feel like. We'll talk about this a little bit later, but I feel like I've retained a pretty good amount of it, and we'll talk about why. Um, but even so, you know, I feel a similar sense of guilt. Um, you know, any time I'm in a situation where I feel like Spanish would be useful, and I'm like, I have it, but I'm kind of embarrassed about, like, where My, like where my level has kind of sunk to as a result of not consistently practicing it all the time. And so it makes me not want to use it. Sort of like how you feel about Japanese. Um, so yeah, I can definitely relate to that. And then Latin was a different story because like I said, I never took classes for it and it was really just like my own impetus to keep going with it just purely for the vibes I guess. And That is, you know, when you're doing that, it's really easy to just stop and not even because you do it consciously. So often I think it's just that like, you get into a routine and then something happens. It can be like a really small thing, like you go on a trip or you get sick and it just for a couple of days messes up your routine. And then it's so easy to not start again. Um, you know, for that reason, it's kind of like. Once you, if you're standing up for a really long time, it's, you can kind of keep going. But once you sit down, you know, it's really hard to get back up. Yeah. Um, all of our older listeners I think will appreciate that. Um, so yeah, I would say I have had similar experiences in that regard. Gotta take a break, take a break to pet the dog.

Marina: 9:40

She needs a lovey.

Jeremiah: 9:42

She needs a microphone.

Marina: 9:43

You need to love it. Like, uh, have you ever learned a language and then took a break?

Jeremiah: 9:48

Oh, she doesn't even speak English. You don't speak English?

Marina: 9:51

What are you talking

Jeremiah: 9:52

about? What are you talking

Marina: 9:54

about?

Jeremiah: 9:54

Micah, go lie down. Go find something to do. Let's keep that in. Anyway. Um, yeah. So, okay. Those are our experiences. So, you know, with all that out of the way, do you want to go ahead and introduce us to some of the theoretical framework behind this phenomenon of like forgetting, forgetting language, like what's it, for one, what's like the scientific term for it? And for two, um, you know, what are, what are kind of the forces at play? Because I think it's worth understanding those if we want to try to combat them.

Marina: 10:32

Mm hmm. Yeah, so the official scientific term for this phenomenon is called language attrition. Jeremiah, you might be able to define it better than me.

Jeremiah: 10:43

Yeah.

Marina: 10:43

Um, what does attrition mean?

Jeremiah: 10:46

Well, attrition is when you have, you have something, right? Um, it can be your language or, It's often used in like a military context to refer to, um, or not even military, just any like personnel situation where you're having people kind of drop off for various reasons. Like in a military context, it might be because people are dying. And so there's a rate of attrition of people getting, you know, like in ancient warfare, it might even just be that people are dying of disease more so than battle. Um, but you know. Uh, like a class might have an attrition rate where over the course of a year students are just kind of one by one dropping the class for whatever reason. Basically you know attrition is happening if you start out with a certain amount of something at the beginning and then at the middle or at the end you have less, right? Right. Um, so like your bank account undergoes attrition throughout the month while you're waiting for payday.

Marina: 11:43

Yeah, so language attrition can take place for your first language. Um, often that happens mostly with children. Um, maybe they, you know, grew up, in the early years with one language, they move into a different context where there's another language that's spoken and they slowly lose their first language, that would be L1 language attrition, or, or L, or just L1 attrition, but it can also more commonly happen with your second language, and we'll be referring to it as L2 attrition, but this can happen for your third language or fourth language or any language. We'll just use L2 to make it easier. Um, so, there's actually, like, not a lot of research on language attrition, at least L2 language attrition. Um, it was surprisingly hard to find studies that have looked at this phenomenon. But, We did kind of identify two main theories about, not necessarily why it happens, because I think that it sort of boils down to just the fact that language has a component of memory, and memory, when it's not exercised for a long time, does tend to go away, right? Um, because Language is gonna be a combination, at least when you're learning a language, it's gonna be a combination of short term and long term memory. Where you activate your short term memory to learn new things. You activate your short term memory to learn new things, like new vocabulary, but Eventually, hopefully, that becomes a part of your long term memory. Um, but, you know, if you don't use it, you lose it, and it eventually goes away. That's essentially what it boils down to.

Jeremiah: 13:39

Yeah, and even long term memory, um, even that can have attrition.

Marina: 13:45

Oh, yeah. Which we'll talk about. Exactly. Um, but, when it comes to, like, what that actually looks like, When we're talking about language attrition specifically, there are two kind of main theories. Uh, one of them is sort of last in, first out. Much like in the big tech companies that are having layoffs right now. Um, the idea is that the last thing that you learned before your, before your break, is gonna be the first thing to go. So, if the last unit in your Japanese class was imperatives, um, and then over summer break, you're probably gonna have a really hard time remembering imperatives when you come back in fall semester. So, that's the idea of, like, the last in, first out. And So if you follow that all the way to its logical conclusion, the idea is that you just go backwards from where you last left off, all the way back to the beginning. So the first thing you lose is going to be the last thing you learned, and then the one that you learned before that is going to go, and the one before that is going to go, all the way back. That's kind of the, sort of regression hypothesis.

Jeremiah: 15:05

Which seems kind of, um, I don't know, Idealist to me in the sense that Um, I don't know, I'm a little suspicious of that particular formulation. Just because it's like, it's too mechanical and nothing about your brain is mechanical.

Marina: 15:21

I agree.

Jeremiah: 15:22

Um, I don't, I'm not contradicting you or anything, but.

Marina: 15:24

No, I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just saying what the theory is.

Jeremiah: 15:28

Yeah, I know. Well, is there like a, would you say there's a better, um, or maybe more competitive theory?

Marina: 15:35

Yeah, so one that sort of came out of that last in first out theory is the best learned last out theory, which. Is also sometimes, you could sort of rephrase it as, the more you know, the less you lose. So, the idea is that there are certain, maybe words, or grammar structures, or things like that, idioms, that you probably know better than others. Maybe you use those words more frequently, they just come up more, they're maybe more common, things like that. The more embedded it is in your memory, the less likely you are to lose it during periods of language attrition. Which makes more sense. Yeah. It's also probably a combination of these two ideas. Yeah, if you learn something more recently. It's more likely to be forgotten because it hasn't fully cooked yet into your long term memory.

Jeremiah: 16:34

Yeah, you just have probably haven't reviewed it as much.

Marina: 16:37

Yeah, exactly, but it doesn't, I don't, I'm also suspicious of like this very like regimented regression. Mm hmm. Um, that the first theory kind of suggests, so it's most likely a little bit of a combination of those two things.

Jeremiah: 16:49

Yeah, and building off of best learned, last out, I'll propose, I'll, I'll pose to you like the analogy that's kind of forming in my head, which is kind of based on my experience with Spanish, particularly, which is that, um, specifically, like you said, the more, you know, the less you lose. And I almost think there's like a, um, this is going to sound really stupid, but like a, a gravitational, um, You know, not literally, but like you can imagine that inside your mind, um, as you're learning language, like if you just learn a little bit, then there's not a lot to like link those bits of separate knowledge of like different grammar rules and different lexical items, vocabulary items to link those together. And so the structure in your brain that's forming of the language is just a lot less kind of. Um, dense, I guess, and, and, um, stable. And so, there's less holding it together, so it's easier for pieces to kind of fly away. Whereas the more you learn, um, and the more you kind of consolidate That, that growing, like, I almost imagine like a, like a ball of stuff of like language stuff. Kind of like, um, I don't know if you know how like planets form, but I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I don't know if you know how planets form, um, but you know, a long, long time ago, uh, the, the earth was like a bunch of separate like bits of rock and space dust and ice and stuff in space, right? Um, and the more of it that kind of coalesced in one place, the more mass it had, and so the more gravity it had, and so it could suck in even more things, more and more and more. And so the more there is, the more stuff gets sucked towards it, and the less is lost. And I picture like a similar thing happening in your brain, where if you already know a lot of the language, and you learn just one extra word or just one extra grammar concept. Because of this kind of like imaginary gravitational effect, you're more likely to hold on to that new piece. If you already know a lot versus if you don't already know a lot, there's like kind of less holding it there in the system overall. And it's easier for it to kind of float away. That's my head cannon based on my experience. Um, and a little bit based on, you know, the best learned last out, um, theory, but I could just be like, totally. Talking crazy, I don't

Marina: 19:18

know. I mean, you are, but also, Your theory is, your headcanon is also supported by the literature. Um, the more advanced you are in your target language, the less you're going to lose during periods of attrition.

Jeremiah: 19:34

Exactly, and that's been my experience with Spanish, is there are things that I would think that I would have lost, but that are still almost like muscle memory for me. Right. Even if they're things that I learned more recently, relatively, than like, Dónde está la biblioteca? Like, that's like, first thing you learn, right? Um, whereas subjunctive stuff, even, is still pretty solid in there, even though it's more recent, which would seem to kind of contradict a little bit the last in, first out, um, idea. That's just my experience, though. You're, uh, you know.

Marina: 20:07

Oh, yeah. No, you're, you're, you're spot on there. Um, there are, like, variables. That come into play when it comes to L2 attrition. Um, and overall aptitude and competency in the language before the break starts is a huge one. Um, so, you know, more advanced learners are, are, are more likely to retain more, um, over time. There are a few other variables that seem to also impact this. One of them is going to be Literacy and just overall education level. So if you have, if you're literate in your L2, then you're more likely to retain the language. If you have, more education in general, that's also an indicator. I'm not sure exactly what the implications of that are. It probably has to do with literacy and just, I don't know, overall academic preparedness. I'm not exactly sure. Um. So, those are, um, I don't know, just interesting things to know. Um, and then, when attrition actually does happen, regardless of, like, what order, order it goes in, um, there are some interesting things about, like, what that actually looks like. Um, so for example, This is something that's supported by the literature and also just anecdotally. I think a lot of people will experience this Which is that your productive skills are more likely to a trit than your receptive skills, so You know You hear this from everybody but like, you know, oh I can still understand Spanish, but I can't speak it anymore Right because they took it in high school This is super common where your speaking and your writing abilities might be a lot, they might suffer a lot more than your, like, reading and listening skills.

Jeremiah: 22:11

Yeah, I would, I would, I've definitely heard that from people, um, and I would say. That's been my experience as well. I don't, hold on a second, I want to look up and see if a trit is a word.

Marina: 22:23

I did look it up before because I wanted to know what the verb was. Really? You can say a trit or a trite.

Jeremiah: 22:30

What?

Marina: 22:30

I know.

Jeremiah: 22:31

I've never heard that before in my life. Right? That's crazy. If you're, uh, if you're learning English and you just learned that, Good luck retaining that. Good luck retaining a trit or a trite in your, unless you already know a lot of English and then Chances are you'll remember it. And even if you don't you're more likely to remember receptively Than productively. Yeah. Summary there for you.

Marina: 22:55

In some of the articles I was reading they even uses the word a tritter

Jeremiah: 23:00

No a tritter

Marina: 23:03

Like

Jeremiah: 23:03

sounds like a slur

Marina: 23:06

I like to talk about students who are experiencing language attrition. Oh,

Jeremiah: 23:11

okay. I was like, that doesn't sound like any verb I've ever heard. I'm like, a tritter? I hardly know her.

Marina: 23:17

Such a weird word. So yeah. Um. So, productive versus receptive, um, so that might have implications for strategies for picking up the language again, which we'll talk about later. Um, and then another interesting tidbit that I found was that, um, your vocabulary is more likely to, go during language attrition than things like grammar. Um, so, you know, which I guess makes sense because grammar is a lot more abstract. What am I trying to say? Like I think that this, I think this makes sense because vocabulary is sort of like discreet units that you have to memorize. Yeah. Which I feel like might be more susceptible to language loss or just, you know, forgetting in general. Whereas grammar is more of like a system that you sort of just, you, like you said earlier, is like muscle memory.

Jeremiah: 24:35

I have another crazy analogy for you. Oh boy. Just to capture this. Okay. Which is, okay, check this out. Um, You can memorize a bunch of different, like, car makes and models, right? Like, the Mazda Miata RFKJR22 or whatever, right? You can memorize, like, a bunch of those, like, like one of those people who, like, memorizes all the different types of tanks. Mm hmm. But you can forget that really easily, especially if you're not, like, Constantly like a car person who's looking at it all the time. Mm-hmm But it's a lot harder to forget how to drive, huh? Hmm. Huh.

Marina: 25:14

That's pretty good.

Jeremiah: 25:16

I'm proud of that one.

Marina: 25:18

Yeah. So there you go. however, um. In looking at the research, it looks like, potentially, there might be exceptions to that, like, for example, idioms, you know, sort of set phrases, things like that, are also more likely to be retained, versus, individual vocabulary words, which I think also makes sense for the same analogy that you kind of used. I think things like set phrases and chunks and things like that are more likely to be retained.

Jeremiah: 25:51

She's not even wet. I don't know why she's shaking so much. Anyway.

Marina: 25:55

She's trying to get our attention.

Jeremiah: 25:56

Yeah, I guess.

Marina: 25:59

Um.

Jeremiah: 26:00

I'm glad you said chunks because I was just thinking that. I was like, why would it be that like formulas, expressions, idioms, like what do all these have to do with each other? And I was like, oh, they're all, they're all chunks. And we're constantly talking about how chunks are easier to learn and remember. than words, and I think part of it is because a chunk, um, typically, or probably almost always says something about the grammar of the language, um, it has at least one, but maybe multiple grammar rules baked into it, usually, you know, for idioms, it's, it's possible that it's like. Not as true, because idioms can have grammatical forms that are no longer productive, which is just a linguistic y way of saying that, like, people don't really say, talk that way anymore, except in that idiom. It's like a Kind of archaic,

Marina: 26:54

yeah.

Jeremiah: 26:54

Can you think of any examples of that?

Marina: 26:56

In English? Yeah. Um, the

Jeremiah: 27:09

Be that as it may. It's a set phrase. It uses, like, an English subjunctive, and we don't really use be in that way in productive ways anymore, even though we used to. Yeah,

Marina: 27:23

that's a good example.

Jeremiah: 27:24

Good example, yeah. Um, speaking of remembering, like, chunks and idioms, I'm wondering if you remember any chunks, any idioms, set phrases or expressions from Japanese that are, like, especially clear in your mind that can kind of, um, be data or evidence for this?

Marina: 27:59

No, I probably do. I'm just trying to think of like examples.

Jeremiah: 28:07

I had a Spanish instructor who constantly in class would say, which I barely even remember what it means, but I remember it really clearly in my mind or, you know, let's see. Um, so now like whenever I'm talking in Spanish and I'm, And I'm like not sure what I'm saying or I just need a second to think. I'll be like, mmm, almost a bit. Which doesn't really make sense. It's like a verbal verbal tick of mine, I guess.

Marina: 28:37

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of like set phrases in Japanese like um, you know all all the different greetings that you do like itekimasu, itterashai Things like that which have grammar baked into them Uh, they just kind of like you just know That's what you say. Sure I don't know, my teachers would always say, Yoku te kimashita, which is like, good job. So yeah, I think, but then, like, I, when I try and think of, the word for, like, street, I can see the character for it, but I don't remember how to say it.

Jeremiah: 29:19

Yeah. Interesting.

Marina: 29:21

Yeah. Vamos a ver. My Spanish teachers always say that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so we've talked a bit about the theory behind language attrition. But what does this all mean for those of us who actually want to get back on the wagon and start learning that language again?

Jeremiah: 29:39

Is it on the wagon or off the wagon?

Marina: 29:41

Well, we want to get laughter Wasn't there like an always sunny? There's a Seinfeld. Seinfeld? Yeah. I think on the wagon in this case.

Jeremiah: 29:56

Is the wagon bad? Where's the wagon going? I think the wagon is good. Doesn't matter. We're going to get back on the wagon of this conversation. And Um, yeah, talk about like how do you actually do that and I think that, based on my experience and also based on the, based on the, uh, the research, once you actually start studying your target language again, if you can get over that affective, uh, kind of roadblock that says, Oh, you know, I want to, but I'm guilty that I haven't for a while. So I'll just. I just will continue not doing it because that'll make me feel less guilty somehow, that's how our brains work. Um, you know, once you start studying your language, that target language again, Um, you'll probably be surprised by how much you actually do still remember. Um, and if, if not right away, you'll be surprised how quickly it comes back to you. Um, but even, even so, I will say that just, it might sound a little tedious, But it's a good idea to go back to the very beginning and review everything. Even if it feels too easy, even if you're like, Oh, I already know what, how to say, because I watch community, there's a whole song about it. Um, you know, even then, even if you already know, and, and, and, uh, Yoroshiku onegai shimasu I remember that one That was good What does that one mean? Like, be nice to me? Yeah, pretty much Okay, that's nice That's better than, I feel like, how, uh, we greet each other Which is just like, hey, what's up Please be nice to me Anyway, um, yeah, it's a good idea to go back, review everything Um, and a big reason for that is because pretty often concepts in a language that are more complex, you know, stuff you learn later, like in Spanish, the subjunctive. They are based on simpler concepts within the language. So, for example, uh, in Spanish, certain subjunctive forms, like, you know, the, uh, She's scratching herself now. She's just making as much noise as she possibly can. She's going to town. Go lay down. Anyway. Um, like the uh, imperfect Now she's trying to climb up in Marina's chair. Just go lie on your bed. Anyway. Um, the imperfect plural third person. Um, like for example, tu viera, which means like It's hard to explain what a subjunctive means, like a translation, because usually it's part of a phrase. But like, um, Si tuviera, like, if I were Actually, no, that's not right. It's kind of right, depending on who you're talking to, but Um, no, yeah, it is right. Si tuviera like, if I had, but I don't, but if I did. Si tuviera, um Actually, that's the imperfect singular first person. Point is, the form is based on Okay, now I remember. The form is based on the third person plural, um, preterite. So, tuvieron is, uh, is they had in the past, not anymore. And yo, si yo tuviera is like if I, if I had, if I were to have, um, you know, it's based on the form. And so even if you're like, Oh, I already know all the present, or I already know the preterite, even the past tense. Um, so I'm just going to skip right to the subjunctive, you know, you'll have an easier time remembering and then relearning the subjunctive if you remember that, Oh, right. All of the, um, or most of the, uh, present subjunctive forms are based on. The present indicative first person singular. For one very specific example, but that goes for a lot of things in language. Another one is like Chinese, if you're um, If you're coming back to Chinese from a long break, it's a good idea to review and make sure that you remember and learn, um, you know, radicals and like simple characters, because a lot of more complex characters are made up of those simpler characters. And you'll have a much easier time Um, one, recognizing what they mean, maybe even, like, pronouncing them, and also just being able to write them with the proper stroke order if you know, like, the more basic radicals that they're made up of. For some very specific examples. and also, you know, these The, these early reviews of like reviewing really early concepts that you already knew. Um, these are just easy wins. Which, if you're learning something, you're constantly fighting a battle against yourself. Um, the part of you that just says like, Oh, you know, this sucks, I'm not good at this, I'm just, I just want to quit, you know. The Oscar, the grouch that lives inside all of us. There's two wolves in you. Um, And, you know, these are easy wins to feed the good wolf that says, good job, you're doing a good job, and that can boost your motivation to keep going.

Marina: 35:09

Yeah, because, you know, it is, it does feel overwhelming to think about starting, quote unquote, over. You're not really starting over because you're going to, it's almost like a big review session where early on you're going to be like, yeah, I know all this, and it'll still be valuable to review. Um, and then when you do start getting closer and closer to where you were before the break, you will be in a much better spot than if you just dove in cold without having done any review. Exactly, because like,

Jeremiah: 35:42

I'm not a neuroscientist, but my understanding, if you've heard the expression neural pathways, um, in your brain, when you learn things, it's creating, like you can imagine them, as pathways within your brain. Your brain, um, that kind of store that information and the thicker and stronger and more extensive those pathways are the better your memory of whatever that is. And so even when you forget stuff, um, the structures in your brain, even if they wither a little, even if they wither from like disuse kind of the same way that your muscles are not as big if you don't exercise, um, you will never go back short of like a brain injury. You'll never go back to what your brain was like structurally before you started learning the language. Like, structures in your brain will always exist for most of the rest of your life, like I said, unless you have a brain injury or some kind of illness. Um, At least the nubs of those neurons will be there. Um, you know, brain surgeons can tell me that it's more complicated than that, but for a layman's understanding, which is all I have, I think that's accurate enough for our purposes.

Marina: 36:53

Speaking of neural pathways, um, a really common thing that comes up in language learning but also just like learning in general and memorizing, um, is spaced repetition.

Jeremiah: 37:06

Yeah, you might have heard about this, especially if you've taken like a psych class or anything really.

Marina: 37:11

Yeah, this is a fantastic way of, optimizing your learning for long term memory and retention.

Jeremiah: 37:19

Yeah, most language learning apps, most digital flashcard apps, um, probably including Quizlet, I think, but Memrise, I think Duolingo, um, pretty much all of those are based on, or they use a spaced repetition algorithm, probably a proprietary one. That the basic idea of spaced repetition is it's kind of what it sounds like where you don't just like learn something once and then hope to hold on to it. You learn it and then you review it pretty soon after that. And then you review it again, but like with a longer gap. And you keep doing that until the gaps between when you review them are so long that you effectively just like. thing. Um, and that's based on science that shows like what reviewing information does like in your brain and for your attention and stuff, which I'll go over in depth actually. Um, so yeah, space repetition, it works like this. You know, when you learn something new, there is a wrap, like if you can imagine a graph where when you first learned something within seconds, Or within minutes, the percentage of what you retain and the likelihood that you're going to retain any one little piece of thing, um, starts to drop rapidly, almost immediately. So, for example, if you're sitting in class and you're introduced to a new verb conjugation or a new vocabulary word, or, you know, a whole vocabulary list, and you look it over, you look at it once, and you look at each word and you're like, okay, this means that, that means this. By the time the class is over, there's a really good chance that you've already forgotten. Probably all of what you learned if at least most of what you learned or you're at least starting to you're very far along on the path of forgetting most of that information because you've only looked at it once and the way that your brain decides to remember things typically is based on importance and association. So, um, you know, if, uh, that's kind of why if you have like a traumatic experience or just any kind of information that's associated with a strong emotion. Um, that tells your brain, this is important. This is important information for my survival. I better not forget. Um, and so, you know, that's a mechanism that your brain uses to filter out unnecessary stuff so it doesn't waste space inside your brain. Remembering, like, how many steps there are on the flight of stairs up to your apartment or whatever. Um, and language, the problem with it is that there's really nothing telling your brain, hey, this is important. Hold onto this. It's not like a decision that you can make. It's kind of an automatic process. So you have to do work or you have to use like a spaced repetition algorithm to convince your brain to hold on to that information is kind of one way to put it. So, um, like I said, by the time the class is over, you've probably forgotten most of what you've learned or you're starting to, but if you then review it later that day, and this goes for anything, this can go for like any other class you're taking, whatever. If you review it later that day, right? Look over your notes, do your flashcards or whatever. Not only does that reset your retention to the level it was in the first few seconds after you originally learned it, which is like a hundred percent, but the speed that you forget that information is actually slower after reviewing it that first time. Um, just a few hours after it was first introduced, you forget it slower than you did after you first learned it. Like the rate of decline, the rate of attrition is lower. Um, but if you leave it there, that's a problem because the rate of attrition is still fairly high. Like you'll forget most of it within a few days. Um, but if the next day, like a day later or two days later, you review it again, not only will you reset your retention to that maximum again, but you will then forget it even slower. The rate of attrition will be even lower and you will forget less of it. So the bottom of your attrition, like the most you could possibly forget. Um, is lower each time, right? So, if you just learn it once and never review it again, you'll forget all of it. If you learn it and then review it a couple hours later, you might only forget like 90 or 80 percent of it. And then if you review it a couple days after that, you might forget only 60 percent of it. And 40 percent of it is like locked in. So there are kind of a lot of data points floating around here. Um, but the point is, Each time you review it, first of all you review it At greater intervals, and then each time you forget it slower, and you retain more. And that's why it's called spaced repetition. Because the space between your review sessions gets longer every time. And if you keep it up, first after a few hours, then after a day or two, then after a week, Two weeks, and then a month. By the time you do that review a month later, the likelihood that you will fully retain the information, or at least almost all of it, um, is very, very high. And the speed that you will forget it drops to, not zero, never zero, but it can drop to effectively zero. In the sense that you now functionally know that information and can recall it Sort of at will and then every time you recall it after that for use you're basically reviewing it So that's your information in your brain. It's not going anywhere for the most part unless you Don't use it for years So yeah, you'll probably remember most of that information for months if not years afterwards

Marina: 42:48

Yeah, I mean, there's definitely still words that I think that we both remember in some of our lost languages. Um, there are some words in Japanese that I will never ever forget, even if I never pick it up again. You know, I think that's always going to be the case. And I think that goes back to what we were talking about earlier, too, where the more advanced you are in a language before your break, the more you're going to retain. I think that's because there's more of that stuff in your long term memory, whether you did spaced repetition or not. Spaced repetition is just a cool way to get it into your long term memory.

Jeremiah: 43:25

Yeah, and a scientifically proven way, you can think of it as optimization because obviously, you know, there are lots of ways that you can review. And there isn't necessarily a perfect formula, because everybody's a little bit different and your rate of attrition might be different than somebody else's with the same amount of review. But you know, that's kind of one of the overriding theories behind most language learning software is that it uses some kind of spaced repetition.

Marina: 43:55

thanks for breaking that down. Yeah. Um, so we've talked about. Going back to basics and reviewing what you've learned, ideally using space repetition to optimize it for long term memory and retention. But also, because you're jumping back into a language that you haven't learned in a while, you're more likely to drop off again. Um, and so, if you're wanting to prevent that, you There, you have to think about some strategies that are going to work for you to stop that from happening. Um, what, you know, we're, we're talking about accountability, um, staying consistent, staying committed, um, how to take breaks without losing progress, like we were talking about, like, once you sit down, it's hard to stand up again. So, the way that I think about it, that's been helpful for me, is that it needs to become a habit again. So, like, when you're taking a language class, your habit or your routine is going to class. It's doing your homework. It's reading a chapter in the textbook every week, whatever it is. Um, when you lose that, um, or if you're totally self studying, It's hard to have the self accountability to do that again, studying every day or every other day, um, practicing regularly, consuming input in the target language voluntarily, not for a homework assignment. Like, that can be tough, and it's tough to rebuild a habit like that, but that's what's going to keep you consistent. and help you make progress towards your goal. Um, so, implementing some kind of accountability tool is going to be really important. Um, maybe that's finding, um, a language partner, a friend, um, a co worker, it could be a tutor, if that's something that you're able to do. Talking to peers, joining a club, something like that. That sort of mimics the accountability of a classroom. If taking a class is not something that you're interested or able to do. Um, so finding some accountability, that's good in general for any kind of language learning situation, but it's especially important in the early stages of jumping back into a language. And then once you're kind of at that point, you also want to make sure that your plan is sustainable for long term learning. So you want to make sure that you're, you don't want to dive in doing like five hours of study a day, seven days a week, because that's going to drop off immediately. Um, and so you want to scale back at least at first. Maybe you study, like, once or twice a week when you have time. Don't learn new concepts. Focus totally on review. Um, but, you know, continue to practice what you've learned at least a little bit so your brain doesn't discard that information like Jeremiah was talking about. Um, which is what happens when you don't use it for a long time. Um, you know. Like we were talking about earlier, people can even lose their first language in this way, not so much when you're an adult, but it does happen. Um, so.

Jeremiah: 47:29

And you know, I've, I've talked to people who've, you know, English speakers who, first language English speakers, who have lived abroad for a long period of time, and even as adults, they'll report that, um, they notice it becoming harder to recall even basic words from English, from their first language. Um, so, you know, just because something is your first language doesn't necessarily mean that it's safe.

Marina: 47:55

Nothing is safe. That's

Jeremiah: 47:56

right. Nothing is safe from your own brain's Oh my god. Nothing is safe from your own brain's impulse to throw things away. It's one of these minimalist girlies that is insistent on, like, getting rid of anything that doesn't spark joy.

Marina: 48:13

Yeah. So yeah, I think that that summarizes kind of the main strategies. I think, you know, the specific techniques that you use aren't going to be very different from the techniques that you use for any type of language learning situation. I think that's just the overall message is going to be. Be patient and kind to yourself, go slow and steady, and it'll come back to you faster than you think.

Jeremiah: 48:39

Yeah, and because of that, it wasn't a waste because you haven't lost it. It's just kind of dusty, it's kind of rusted over, you know, The tires are flat and there's a hole in the I don't actually know anything about cars But you know, you ever see like a really old car That hasn't been touched in a while. It's probably got some problems probably not drivable anymore, but It can be restored to its former glory a lot more easily than building a whole new car, right?

Marina: 49:05

Yeah, I don't this whole conversation has made me a Little more motivated to pick up Japanese

Jeremiah: 49:12

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think if you started studying Japanese again, even at a moderate rate, you would probably get back to where you were pretty quickly. Like, honestly, this is my claim, I would say that if you're picking up a language like that, that you haven't studied in a while, you will get back to where you were in a fraction of the time that it took you to get there the first time.

Marina: 49:33

Yeah, totally. I don't think it'll take me three years to get back to where I was with Japanese. Exactly. So I should just, I should just start.

Jeremiah: 49:40

Yeah. Yoroshiku onegai

Marina: 49:41

shimasu.

Jeremiah: 49:45

Good start. Thank you for tuning in to How to Language. We hope we've inspired you to pick up that old language that you haven't studied since high school or reconnect with your first language that you haven't spoken in years. It's never too late to recover the knowledge you built the first time around and you will honestly be surprised at how much you remember if you just start putting in the effort again.

Marina: 50:09

If you like what we do, you can rate and review us on your preferred podcast app and follow us on Instagram at HowToLang for updates on future episodes and other fun stuff. Thanks for listening. Bye.