Marina: 0:00

There's plenty of reading material both, you know, physically and online. You can find reading material for free very easily. Um, whether it's at the library or online. So it is a very low barrier to entry and something that you could integrate into your routine a lot.

Jeremiah: 0:17

You can do it on the bus. You can do it in the shower. You can do it in your sleep.

Marina: 0:22

In the shower?

Jeremiah: 0:24

Yeah, you put the book in a plastic bag.

Marina: 0:27

In your sleep?

Jeremiah: 0:29

Put the book under your pillow. Welcome back to How to Language, a podcast about language skills for language learners. I'm Jeremiah.

Marina: 0:43

And I'm Marina.

Jeremiah: 0:45

This week we wanted to go back to basics a little bit and talk about the four language skills. We'll talk about the key differences between them, how to improve each one of those skills in isolation, and why you shouldn't practice those skills in isolation.

Marina: 0:57

Quick disclaimer for this episode. By default, we do our best to make our discussions on this show inclusive of both spoken and signed languages. However, because we will be talking about the four language skills today, we want to preface it by saying that what we discuss today is specific to spoken languages that also have writing systems. Pop quiz, Jeremiah. See how much you remember from school. What are the four language skills?

Jeremiah: 1:29

The four language skills are speaking and listening and then Reading and writing. And also, this obviously only applies to spoken languages and also languages with writing systems.

Marina: 1:42

Right, exactly. Not, this isn't as, I mean, obviously with sign languages, there are equivalencies of like speaking and listening. But it's not something that can so easily be written down. so yeah, what we're talking about pertains to spoken languages that also have writing systems. so, in the field of language acquisition, uh, and also language teaching, you often see language broken down into these four discrete components. Reading, writing, listening, and speaking. to be clear, there is a lot more to language than these four things, um, especially on like the sociolinguistic level or the pragmatic level.

Jeremiah: 2:25

Oh yeah, big time. Really we thought it would be a good idea just to kind of get back to basics and explore these four skills because they're, they, they, they encompass a lot of the different ways that people learn languages, the different ways that people use languages, and it's kind of a lens that people use to think about language a lot. So we're going to talk about what their deal is, why some people might struggle with one or the other, and also what you can do to improve in these areas.

Marina: 2:52

Exactly. another thing that I wanted to say was that traditionally, these four language skills are divided into two categories. Active skills and passive skills. So the active skills would be those that involve the, the, the language user actually producing language. So that would be speaking and writing. The passive skills would be where the language user is receiving language. So that would be listening and reading.

Jeremiah: 3:25

But right off the bat, I think, and maybe people will already Kind of notice this dividing them into active and passive is maybe a little simplistic, which I mean, I know, you know, um, but people might say, well, listening can be active. There's a whole thing called active listening, um, reading. Well, no reading. You can be an active reader. Like you can annotate. So people might say, well, why are those not active and is speaking and writing always active? Can you speak and write passively? Those are fair points. And believe me, people talk about that. specific thing a lot when studying this whole issue of the four language skills. Again, it's like more of a lens and you shouldn't you shouldn't take it prescriptively and you shouldn't necessarily take it at face value, but that's the way people talk about it in terms of active and passive. And so it's, it's worth bringing up.

Marina: 4:11

Exactly. And I think what that distinct or that categorization is coming from is that when you're speaking or writing, you're actively producing the language. Presumably from nothing. You're just using a lot of active recall. And so, those two skills are often thought of as being more difficult. Or, a lot of people might say that those are the skills that they struggle the most with. Especially speaking. Um, and we'll get into that a little later.

Jeremiah: 4:40

And actually, it's funny you mention that, because if you talk to somebody and they ask, What languages do you speak? I don't know why they, people ask that sometimes. And they ask you that, and you say, well, or you might hear people say, Well, you know, I, I I learned Spanish in high school, and I can understand it, but I can't really speak it. That's a common thing people say, and that really gets at this, that at least the quote unquote active skills are perceived as being harder, and they can be harder for the exact thing you mentioned, that, you know, in a sense you are producing something from nothing, um, and so you're not just taking something that's already there and making sense of it, so that's a fair point.

Marina: 5:20

Yep, definitely. so, for a more interesting discussion today, um, we're going to talk about the four skills, not in terms of active versus passive, because as we just said, those categories don't really mean a whole lot to us, so instead, we're going to think about them in terms of their more natural pairings, so that would be speaking and listening, um, which are more real time events, and then reading and writing, Which are events where you have a lot more control.

Jeremiah: 5:49

That's a really good point. And that does get back at what we talked about in the last episode about orthographies. That was really specific to how orthographies are put together, but I think it's, it's, it's appropriate that this is the episode that we're doing after that one because people might be wondering, well, is there more to the difference between writing versus spoken or signed language? And the answer is yes, for this exact reason. That There's real time language, quote unquote, that's one way to look at it, which, yeah, is writing, or no, yeah, right, no, speaking and listening, and then there's, um, essentially language where you have a lot more time to think, which is reading and writing.

Marina: 6:32

Exactly. Alright, let's start with speaking, because that's the one that most people have the hardest time with, I would say. Um, so, So, you hear that a lot from language learners citing speaking as being the hardest skill to learn, to become comfortable with. With speaking, there's a lot of anxiety involved because speaking your target language is not as natural to you yet. and so that can produce a lot of stress, a lot of fear, a lot of social anxiety.

Jeremiah: 7:07

And if you think about it. From both of those lenses, active versus passive, but also real time versus static or whatever. Um, right. Speaking is really the worst of both worlds because not only are you using active recall, which is hard, um, but you're also, there's a serious time crunch. If you're in, especially if you're in a conversation, most situations that require speaking skills. You have a very finite amount of time to put your thoughts in order and then externalize them. And you're really just hoping that it'll make sense and when you're first learning a language and for a while after that your success will not depend so much on whether you get it right the first time but on whether you're able to clarify what you just said. Because they didn't understand it the first time.

Marina: 7:59

And that's all hard enough in your L1. It's hard enough to create a cogent thought in any, in your first language, but in a different language, yeah, that's tough. So yeah, like you said, speaking is a very dynamic skill. You're on the spot. You usually don't get any preparation. You know, if it's a spontaneous conversation and not a scripted oral exam in your language class. There might be anxiety around your pronunciation. You might be afraid of sounding stupid, of sounding unnatural, etc. There's a lot of baggage that comes with speaking in your target language for a lot of people.

Jeremiah: 8:38

I think It's also worth comparing The experience of children acquiring their first languages versus adults acquiring a second language because with children, when they're acquiring their first language, if you've ever spent any time around a child, you know, they make mistakes all the time. They just don't feel shame.

Marina: 8:54

They have no shame.

Jeremiah: 8:54

Um, which is awesome for them. Maybe part of it is, part of why they're so successful is that they just kind of go for it, and they're not constantly thinking about, Uh oh, am I going to say this wrong? Whereas adults, when you're learning your second language, you have a much higher capacity for embarrassment. Or adults maybe have a lot more shame, which Obviously, we're going to tell you, oh, you shouldn't, you know, you're learning a language. That's an amazing thing to do. Um, you shouldn't feel embarrassed for trying to do something hard like that, but we're humans and we're going to feel that way anyway.

Marina: 9:29

Yeah, definitely. And when, when you're an adult learning a second language, it can feel kind of like you're a kid again. You know, when, when kids. Are young and they're just learning how to speak. They're having all these thoughts and they're having all these feelings that they want to express, but they don't have the tools yet to communicate those things. And that can lead to frustration, that can lead to crying, and things like that. And it can feel a little bit like that when you're an adult too, where you have all these things that you want to say and all these things that you want to be able to convey. Because you're a smart adult, like, you can form complex thoughts and sentences in your first language. And you want to be able to do that with everybody that you communicate with. Um, but, when it's in your target language, that can be very frustrating, and it can impact your confidence.

Jeremiah: 10:17

Yeah, one time I saw, I think it was just a meme, but it was basically Just from a show, a sitcom that I've never seen, but I remember the gist of it was that it was a character and Spanish was her first language and she was speaking in English and the other characters around her, the white characters around her, were mocking her for her English not being as proficient as theirs, for them as first language users, and the funny thing was, or it's not funny, but the thing is that the character as far as I understand was highly educated in Spanish. And she said, she says, you know, you should hear how smart I am in Spanish.

Marina: 10:56

Oh, yeah. I think that was Sophia Vargara.

Jeremiah: 10:58

Oh, okay.

Marina: 10:59

I don't know what that was from. Maybe Modern Family.

Jeremiah: 11:01

Modern Family? Never seen it.

Marina: 11:02

But I, that's something that she's in but I know with her, I know it was her that said that. Yeah. Okay. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. That's a good example. That's that. That's a good example of seeing how frustrating it can be to speak in your target language.

Jeremiah: 11:14

And other people don't always help.

Marina: 11:16

No, no, definitely not. So, unfortunately, we've painted quite a grim picture. Um, but as difficult as speaking is for most people, um, that doesn't mean that it's something to be avoided. Which is Not what the news that anybody wants to hear, but it's true.

Jeremiah: 11:35

Also, probably not a surprise you can't you can't just well You can not speak like for example, especially if you're learning a An ancient language or quote unquote dead language good news for you. You don't have to speak it You still should, I think, because it's a fun thing to do, but you don't have to. But, if you're learning a living language that people do speak, and especially if you're learning it to use it for something, which most people are, then, bad news, but also not, you know, not a surprise, probably. You are going to have to speak it. The good news is that, in general, like anything, any skill, the more you do it, the easier it gets. We've all heard, practice makes perfect, and as flawed of a sentence as that is. It is true in this case that, yeah, the more you do it, the easier it will get, the better you will get at it, and the more successful you will be in getting your ideas across.

Marina: 12:27

Yeah, and if pe if, if speaking to people is too much at the moment, or maybe you're struggling to find people to speak with, then there are ways to get in speaking practice without actually having a conversation partner. And the best way to do this is to talk to yourself, um, which sounds weird, but it really works. Like, I have regular conversations with myself in Spanish when I'm, like, taking a shower or in the car by myself. Just imagining, like, an imaginary conversation, how I would respond, that is really helpful. Not the same as talking to a real person because when you're talking to a real person you can't predict what they're going to say, but it is better than nothing.

Jeremiah: 13:18

Big time. Definitely a useful thing to do, a useful exercise. I will say the most meaningful change does seem to happen when the practice itself is meaningful, which is just another way of saying that You're going to see the best results when you're using the language to solve problems. And the kind of problems that you solve with language are the problems That just means having conversations with real people to arrive at shared meanings. That's solving social problems, and that's what language is for. So, you should talk to people that you enjoy talking to, for one. That can help, not just talking to strangers or people who might be mean to you. Talk about topics that you care about or are interested in. For one thing, that'll make learning that vocabulary more fun, and then you'll just have more tools, more materials to string together sentences, which will also make you more successful at getting your ideas across when you're not having to search for as many words. And by having those successes early on, and also just throughout that, that's going to help your confidence. And it's just a positive feedback loop at that point.

Marina: 14:26

Increase your motivation to for sure. Yeah. All right, so, speaking's partner would be listening, which

Jeremiah: 14:35

which is a passive skill, right? And so you don't actually have to work, you don't have to put in any effort when you listen to things, right?

Marina: 14:42

I wish. Listening is the skill that I tend to have the hardest time with. Really? Yeah. Like, like. You know, in the past, it's the, it's the skill that I've struggled with the most.

Jeremiah: 14:55

I think the thing that makes listening a little unfair for the learner is that when you're speaking you have what you have, right? You have the words and you have the chunks that you have access to and it's really just a question of, you know, This is what you got. Good luck. With listening, you have what you have. But everybody else is working with a full, is playing with a full deck, and you are not. Not only that, okay, so first of all, they are very likely to use words and chunks and expressions that you just don't know. Also, they, because they're other human beings, who maybe are from all over the world, are likely, especially if it's a widely spoken language like Spanish, if they're a first language Spanish user, or not, They are going to be speaking a version of Spanish, a variety, a dialect of Spanish, that it's possible you just didn't learn. It might not be the dialect that your teacher spoke, and it might not be the dialect that the people that you're around most who speak that language speak. So for example, if you're talking, if you learned Mexican Spanish in school, and then you talk to a Cuban, you know, All the love in the world to, to Cubans, but I've listened to, I've listened to Cuban Spanish and no offense, it is hard to understand.

Marina: 16:16

Yeah, or just anything that you're not primed to listen to. I imagine that if you've never encountered Argentinian Spanish before and you went to Argentina, it might, it might take a little time to get used to it. And, you know, just like with speaking, listening is a real time event. Where, you know, unless you're watching like a TV show where you can pause and rewind and things like that, if you're talking to a real person, You're just trying to keep up, you're trying to parse the thing that they said while you're listening to what they're currently saying, um, especially when the speech is at a speed that's maybe a little bit above your level, it can be very Very mentally taxing.

Jeremiah: 16:58

Yeah, and good luck getting a stranger to slow down. Even if they are being nice, and they want to help you, they are, you know, sympathetic, they understand you're trying to learn, and you say, hey, you know, thanks for talking to me, but can you slow down a little bit? They'll be like, sure. Yeah!

Marina: 17:13

Dude, how many times has that happened? Yeah, it's, it's hard to know, How fast you're going in your first language, you know, when you know be when being perceived by a by a learner It's it's hard for people to gauge how fast they're actually speaking.

Jeremiah: 17:31

Yeah. Also, I'm glad you mentioned TV shows we'll probably get to this when we talk about how to improve listening, but You know, we can save it but That, there's your hint. TV shows or just any media where you are listening to the language and, but you have control over the speed, so YouTube is great, uh, or at the very least you can back it up and listen to it again. We'll get to that though. Go ahead. Sorry.

Marina: 17:56

Um, so yeah, listening, like speaking. Often thought of as a passive act because the listener isn't actually doing anything. They're not producing any language, um, and so it's categorized as being passive. And it can be passive, like if you just have the radio on in Japanese in the background while you're doing all your chores and it's kind of like white noise in the background, I would call that passive. Whether you understand it or not. but even things like Listening to a podcast, or watching a movie or a TV show in the target language, eavesdropping on other people in the target language, those are great, and those are useful, yes. and your listening will probably improve if you, consume that type of content.

Jeremiah: 18:45

Assuming you're actually tuned in. If you're listening to Japanese on the radio in the background while you do Pilates or something, and you're not actually paying attention, you're not going to get it through osmosis, I gotta tell you.

Marina: 18:55

Yeah. Oh, I wish. I wish. But, that was an extreme example. Listening to a podcast actively is better than that. But there is a little bit more to listening to that. The thing that I've found has helped me the most with improving my listening is active listening. And I think active listening is really like the secret sauce here because it entails actually having conversations with people, which adds stakes to the situation. It gets that adrenaline pumping.

Jeremiah: 19:27

You also have a job in a conversation. Like, we call listening, or not we, but people call listening a passive skill. And like I said, really passive listening is just hearing. You can hear something going on in the background and not know what it is. So that's passive. I think, you know, any listening where you're tuned in is active to an extent. And really conversations is that. Yeah. In overdrive because yeah, there are stakes and you have a job in the conversation. You're not just there to receive the light that somebody else is pouring into your brain by speaking to you. You have a responsibility to them to reciprocate and to say, Hmm, and ah, and yeah, okay. Right. to, to let them know that you are paying attention. That's something that humans expect from one another. And, and, and usually you're juggling understanding what they're saying, which is the listening. Not just hearing but also planning how you're going to respond and then if you get that combination wrong And you spend too much time thinking about what you're gonna say And not actually listening to them one. You might not actually hear what they say at all which is gonna be awkward or It might just be like if you do that in your l1 like if you talk to somebody and clearly they just want to say What they want to say, they're not actually listening to you. You also don't want to be that person which if you are In your second language, don't be too hard on yourself because that is a hard balance to strike, but it's also worth remembering that that's a thing.

Marina: 20:59

Yeah. So the ideal situation here would be to find somebody that you can talk to. Um, and preferably, somebody who is willing to speak at a pace that you're comfortable with. So this could be a tutor, this could be a teacher, or even just a patient friend or family member who speaks the target language. if that is not available to you, you can listen to the content that I mentioned earlier, like podcasts and TV shows and movies in the target language. But, I would suggest Kind of flipping a switch in your head that goes from passive listening to active listening. So, listening to what the people are saying, almost as if you had to respond. So, that means that you're listening for comprehension, and you're listening to respond, which are both, um, elements of active listening. And so, that might add some artificial stakes to what you're listening to. you could even listen to something or watch something as if you had to then, like, write a paragraph about what you just listened to, you know, kind of like they do in school. We'll get into skills integration later, but that, that would be a good way to practice active listening. Um, I've, I've even seen videos where It's like a mock conversation where the person will say something in the target language and then leave some, some empty, like, airspace. What's the word? Empty Air airtime? Airtime. Airtime.

Jeremiah: 22:30

That's what you have when you're on a motorcycle and you go off a jump, I think.

Marina: 22:33

Well, they leave there's a pause in the conversation for you to then say something in response. So you have to listen to what they say. And then formulate a response. And it's almost like having a conversation. So, that's another way to help with active listening.

Jeremiah: 22:52

So, those are the skills that, What would you even call those skills? Real time skills? Skills where you are, You know, you're against the clock. Mm hmm. Whatever. So. We'll think of a word. Yeah. So those are those skills. Then you've got the skills that are not time sensitive. Maybe if you're in an exam, they're kind of time sensitive, but that's an artificial constraint that's placed on you. It's not inherent to the, the, the context in which the skill is used. And of course, I'm talking about reading and writing. Let's, let's, let's start with reading. Just, I guess, following off of listening. You can think, I guess, of reading as the analog to listening because you're taking something in, you're not producing anything. Reading and writing are both skills where you have a lot more control in terms of how fast you read, how fast you write. You can take as many pauses as you want. You can Redo things. If you write something and it turns out bad, you can redo it and there's no consequences. So, for people who are learning another language, I think often, reading and also writing can feel really satisfying and it can feel like you're making some serious progress. And you are. Don't get me wrong. That is what's nice, I guess, about language learning apps. For example, Duolingo, and these try to integrate the skills, and I think they do a pretty good job, often. But because they're apps on your phone, they tend to be pretty text based. Mm hmm. Whether it's reading or writing. When you're reading, you don't have pressure from others, most of the time. You can pause, you can look things up, you can reread.

Marina: 24:34

You're not engaging with a second person. Reading and writing are usually, usually solitary activities.

Jeremiah: 24:41

Exactly. Reading is great because you're really just taking in the language that already exists, somebody put it down, and it's not going anywhere. There's also no required production, and so you don't have a job like you do in a conversation. There's no time sensitivity, the writing isn't fleeting. You also have the choice to read about things that interest you. You can't always control What makes it into a conversation, but you can decide whether you want to pick up, you know, Wuthering Heights or Schindler's list. Is that a, was that a book first? Or is that just a movie?

Marina: 25:15

I don't think it was a book.

Jeremiah: 25:17

Okay. I don't know. Pride and Prejudice. War and Peace. Yeah, yeah. These are all great books to start with, I think. Yeah,

Marina: 25:32

kind of building off of that, uh, reading can be a really great vocabulary builder because you're reading things that interest you, hopefully, um, which means that you're learning a lot of valuable vocabulary, which motivates you to, um, retain it more. It helps also to put language into context, which also happens when you're listening, but at least with when you're reading, it's written down right in front of you, you can, you can really take it in, you can take your time to parse it and things like that, which is really nice. Takes the pressure off. also with reading. It's something that you can do very easily and very frequently. It doesn't require a partner to go and hunt down. There's plenty of reading material both, you know, physically and online. You can find reading material for free very easily. Um, whether it's at the library or online. So it is a very low barrier to entry and something that you could integrate into your routine a lot.

Jeremiah: 26:34

You can do it on the bus. You can do it in the shower. You can do it in your sleep.

Marina: 26:39

In the shower?

Jeremiah: 26:41

Yeah, you put the book in a plastic bag.

Marina: 26:44

In your sleep?

Jeremiah: 26:45

Put the book under your pillow.

Marina: 26:50

So, also like listening, it's often thought of as a passive act, because you're not producing any language, but you can make reading a more active process as well. As you're reading you can look up vocabulary that you don't know so, you know, there is something to be said for just reading for fluency and kind of picking up words from context and And that's fine. Um, but if you do want to sit down and make it a little bit more active, you can take note of words that you don't know, look them up, and that will make your reading a lot smoother as you move forward through the book. you can highlight and make notes if you're able to. you know, as long as it's not a library book, or something like that. that kind of focuses your attention in certain places. Like, oh, I highlighted this part because I've never encountered this conjugation before and I want to look more into it. Or I'm confused as to why they use this word here. Um, you know, so I'm going to investigate it a little bit more. You can also write notes just related to the content of what you're reading, not just the language components. So, as you would, maybe this is a little bit more advanced, but, you can just write marginal notes or annotations on the things that you're reading, just about the content, what your thoughts are, what your reflections are, as if it was in your first language. another thing you can do, similar to listening is to read for comprehension and then keep yourself accountable for that comprehension by maybe talking to other people about what you read. That can be in person with, you know, the people around you. You could join a book club in your target language. You could You know, for an online version, you could read things and respond to things in online forums in your target language, Discord, Reddit, things like that. Um, those are good ways to do active reading, while also keeping yourself accountable for that active reading.

Jeremiah: 28:59

The Last skill we want to talk about in isolation is writing. Writing is probably my favorite. I like the combination of producing, but also not being under a time crunch. It's a great way to produce the language without the anxiety of speaking. It looks cool, especially if there's a different orthography, which now we can talk about. It looks super cool. If you're writing in, you know, the dragon language from Skyrim, that just looks cool. It's just cool to look at. You also have control, right? You can take your time to reread what you write. You can, you can edit. Even if you're in conversation with someone through, through texting or email, you, you have control. You, what you put down in the first instance isn't what you're stuck with. Unlike speaking, you can also choose what to write about, especially in private writing. You know, if you're journaling and You can intentionally practice certain things, like, for example, vocabulary, if you're working through a vocabulary set, you can write to practice a new grammar concept, or you can even write in a different register, which is to say that you can write more formally, you can write less formally to practice, because maybe you don't get a lot of opportunities to produce in that register, and you might be thinking, wow, this sounds great, I'll just write all the time, and obviously, we don't have to tell you that. While, as fun as writing is, again, speaking is usually something you're going to have to do, too. But, writing is a good place to get your feet wet with new things before you take them out into the world and get embarrassed because you're having a hard time putting them into words for people.

Marina: 30:43

Exactly. Also, if you regularly write in your target language, that's a really fun way to track your progress in a really concrete way. Like, if you keep a journal, whether it's Um, physical or digital. You can look back to the earlier pages and see like, wow, like, I've really come a long way. It's a great, uh, confidence builder.

Jeremiah: 31:03

Big time. And obviously it's worth noting that reading and writing are more of a challenge when the language that you're learning has a different orthography, a different writing system than the writing system of your first language. So if you are a first language Spanish speaker and you are learning Russian. That is going to be a little tougher in the reading and writing department. In those cases, first of all, it's just more important. I mean, it's already important, but it's even more important to make time for reading and writing. And I'll also say this, that that's one of the advantages of reading and writing, is that When you're speaking and you're listening, if the language has another orthography, then speaking and listening, you're just not getting that. You're not getting that practice. You're totally, you know, on the other side of the tracks. so if the language you're learning does have another orthography, that's just all the more reason to practice reading and writing. Because this is an actual thing that you still have to learn and gain mastery of. So we've addressed each of these skills in isolation, which is funny because early on we hinted that that's maybe not the best thing to do. But it's necessary to at least talk about them in isolation first so that we have a clear idea of what they are and how you can improve on them. However, it is important to say that while it's helpful to understand how each of these skills works in isolation, they are not by any means isolated from each other in practice, in real life. These are just categories we use to help ourselves think about things. And we We have to stay close to the reality of language, which is that these four things, to the extent that they even are four separate things, are constantly, constantly interacting with each other, and you really can't have one without the other. There's no writing without reading. There's no speaking without listening. Having only one or the other is an incomplete sense of what the language even is. That's not as true for Speaking and listening versus reading and writing, because of course you don't have to have a writing system in a language, and so the idea of the four language skills is, like we said in the beginning, something that is particular to languages with writing systems, which it's important to note isn't the default, but Or necessarily even the norm for languages in the world. And as a matter of fact, language has been around a lot longer than written language. But, presumably, there's a good chance that if you're learning another language, it is a language with a writing system. Which is why we are talking about these four skills as if they are four immutable categories. But again, The, the, in real life, these, these skills are combined. And so, for the rest of the episode, we're going to talk about Combining them in your practice and in your learning.

Marina: 34:06

And this whole thing about the four skills being combined. isn't, some woo woo stuff that we're just making up. Like, this is actually supported by literature. Uh, do you remember Kumaravadivelu?

Jeremiah: 34:18

Do I remember Kumaravadivelu? I do remember Kumaravadivelu, let me tell you.

Marina: 34:24

Um, well, in his book, Beyond Methods, oh, Kumaravadivelu is a very prominent scholar in the field of second language acquisition and specifically language teaching and learning. so he's kind of, he's kind of a big deal, he's kind of a big deal in our field. Um, and no one knows his first name, like when, in all of his stuff, it always, Just says Kumaravadivelu, and maybe it'll have, like, his first initial, which is B. B. Kumaravadivelu. Yeah, but, like, I don't know what the B stands for.

Jeremiah: 34:58

I searched once and I couldn't, or maybe I did find it. I don't remember. Maybe it's Brian.

Marina: 35:05

I hope it is. I hope it is. Um, so yeah, he's kind of just, he's kind of like Beyonce in that way, where he just has, you know, the one name. Maybe his first name is Beyoncé!

Jeremiah: 35:19

Have you ever seen Beyoncé and Kumaravadivelu in the same room?

Marina: 35:22

I haven't.

Jeremiah: 35:24

There you go.

Marina: 35:26

Okay. So, uh, in his book, Beyond Methods, Macro Strategies for Language Teaching, Kumaravadivelu argues that the four language skills always inevitably overlap. Uh, there's a really great quote on the first page of the chapter where he talks about this, where he says, Rare indeed is the day when we only listen, or only speak, or only read, or only write. That's just a nice way of putting it. And it's true, right? There's very rarely when we're using language are we only doing one skill at a time. Or rather, One skill completely in isolation for any extended period of time. Despite that, he points out that schools and, you know, language curricula in general often do their absolute best to separate these skills out. So, you might see, like, courses in advanced English writing or intermediate listening. Um, in Spanish or something, you know, like,

Jeremiah: 36:36

I'm an intermediate listener.

Marina: 36:37

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremiah: 36:39

Somebody is like, I need somebody to talk to. Are you a good listener? Oh, intermediate.

Marina: 36:44

And you know, it's not like if you, if you really did take a listening class, for example, it is not like you are just going to be listening to the target language for an hour straight. Like that's just not how that would work. Um, so they're, they're artificially, you know, cordoned off. Yeah. Yeah. into these four separate categories. Now, this is changing, um, because, you know, Kumaravadivelu's, uh, ideas are becoming more mainstream. but that is what you have generally seen in the past.

Jeremiah: 37:18

Imagine if you went to driving school and day one was just accelerating. And then, like, six weeks later, they're like, Alright, time to learn braking.

Marina: 37:29

That doesn't work. It doesn't work. Um, the reason that they were kind of separated for a long time was the thinking that targeted practice in one skill at a time helps to improve that skill, like you're, you're channeling energy into one specific skill for A set amount of time, and that was supposed to help. Um, especially if you were trying to help a student who's weaker in one skill over another. So maybe they're a really strong reader, but they're not so good at speaking. that would have been an argument to put them in a speaking class. but, what Kumaravadivelu argues for is something called language skills integration. And this is where learners engage in all four language skills regularly in the classroom. At the same, you know, in the same classroom. Uh, or whatever learning situation they're in. Not necessarily a classroom setting. Because this is a natural reflection of how language exists in the real world.

Jeremiah: 38:34

Yeah, like you could have, you could have a language class. And the teacher will, and this is something that probably people are familiar with because a lot of this gets done nowadays, I think. So the teacher opens the class and tells the class, you know, what she did over the weekend. And the class is listening to But then the teacher asks students to share what they did over the weekend. And so now the students have listened and maybe have gotten a little refresher on weekend vocabulary. And now it's their turn to produce and they're going to speak. And then they read a passage in the target language, which is reading. And while they're reading, they're asked to take notes, which is writing. And then they break out into small groups and talk about their findings, which is speaking and listening. And so the goal of that class is to It's integrate those four language skills towards the same ends, and it really is replicating what you do in real life by speaking while you listen and writing while you read or vice versa.

Marina: 39:35

Now, that would be a traditional classroom environment example, but let's say that you're not actually in a language class. Language skills integration is still really important and something that you can still do. So, for example, you might start your day by listening to a podcast in your target language, so that's listening practice. And then on your way to work, maybe on the bus or something, you read a book in your target language, and there's reading. You maybe are trying to do some artificial immersion, so when you're at work you write your to do list in the target language, so that's some writing practice. And talk through each task to yourself, which gets in a little bit of speaking practice. When you get home, you watch a movie in the target language with subtitles, so that's reading and listening. Or maybe you have a virtual tutoring session, um, that which would, hopefully if they're a good tutor, would hit all four skills, speaking, listening, but also maybe a little reading and writing.

Jeremiah: 40:37

I have an analogy for you. It's, I don't know if you, well, you do work out. I've been, we've been working out together a little bit.

Marina: 40:44

I do, thank you very much.

Jeremiah: 40:44

Yeah, good job. So, it's like, if you're doing workouts, or, you know, if, if you, if you get into fitness and you're, you're researching, okay, how do I make the most of my time in the gym? When people think about the gym, they're probably thinking like, Oh, I'm going to do some bicep curls, get my biceps looking tall, which is great. You know, good on you. If you're out here, if you're a bodybuilder, that's cool. But if you're just getting into fitness advice, you'll probably get from most people is to focus on compound exercises. You know, which basically just means instead of focusing on one specific muscle, which just to be clear, you have a bunch of muscles in your body, and if you were to focus on them one at a time, you'd be in the gym all day. So, they tell you to do a compound exercise, and that's where you work multiple muscles, multiple muscle groups at the same time. first of all it's just more efficient, but also you're going to develop a lot more evenly, if that makes sense.

Marina: 41:40

Yeah, that's a perfect analogy here. Because, as Kumaravadivelu argues, the skills are going to overlap anyway. Like, no matter what, basically. They're going to overlap. They're going to integrate. Much like, uh, you use your entire body every day, right? Very rarely do you Like, only use your legs.

Jeremiah: 42:00

Only use your biceps.

Marina: 42:01

Yeah, exactly.

Jeremiah: 42:02

Maybe if, if you, uh, go to the grocery store, and you got a bunch of groceries, and you pick them up, there's your biceps, but now you gotta put them down. Okay, well I guess that's not, that doesn't make, doesn't make sense because you're still using them. Anyway, you're right. It made more sense when you said it.

Marina: 42:20

Yeah. So, you know, the question is why artificially isolate them? When we're talking about language, there's, there's nothing wrong with targeted practice, but I think with the, with the understanding that they will integrate is important, and you know, it's just more efficient. It's just like a compound workout. It's just more efficient. So why not do it that way? at the, at the, Kumaravada Velu's chapter on four skills integration, he includes this really nice quote. That I think sums it up really well. Language, it's like dividing water. It flows back together again.

Jeremiah: 42:59

That's beautiful.

Marina: 43:00

Yeah.

Jeremiah: 43:04

Thank you for listening to this episode of How to Language. We hope you have some more insight into how to balance the four language skills in your own learning routine. If you like what we do, you can leave a review wherever you listen to this show, and you can follow us on Instagram and X at HowToLang. See you next time!

Marina: 43:22

Bye!